Using an Executive Coach to Focus Your Business

October 5, 2021

Claus Rosenberg

Executive Coach and entrepreneur

Listen to the podcast

Claus Rosenberg is the Founder and CEO of multiple firms that simplify the journey for entrepreneurs building their businesses. He has built 12 companies, had over 1,000 employees, and raised over € 20 million (over $23 million) in funding. He has also worked as an advisor to several companies and was Madrid’s Chapter Director for Startup Grind.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Claus Rosenberg shares his thoughts on the self-made man
How Claus helps senior executives consider coaching to help run their businesses
Why should entrepreneurs hire an executive coach, and how they’re different from consultants?
How to find the right executive coach and for how long
Claus’ advice on when a coachee should ignore guidance from an executive coach
Claus’ advice to entrepreneurs on hiring and managing employees
Claus explains how his past experience prepared him to become a coach
How he helps clients thinking of selling and exiting their businesses
The best way to start working with an executive coach

In this episode…

Being an entrepreneur or business owner does not mean that you have to know everything. There are many aspects involved in successfully running a business while paying attention to your health and family at the same time. Asking for help or guidance should never be seen as a sign of weakness but of strength and courage.

As an executive coach, Claus Rosenberg recommends finding someone who has been in your shoes to work with and guide you on your journey. His advice is to find an executive coach who connects with you. Through his coaching, Claus helps entrepreneurs realize there is strength in vulnerability and being authentic and open in their communication with employees.

In this episode of the Buy Box Experts Podcast, James Thomson is joined by Claus Rosenberg, an Executive Coach and entrepreneur, to talk about Claus’ role in coaching and guiding entrepreneurs. They discuss the various challenges entrepreneurs face, the benefits of working with a coach, tips for finding the right executive coach, and hiring and managing employees. Stay tuned.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sponsor for this episode…

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The team works with marketplace technicians using a system of processes, proprietary software, and extensive channel experience to ensure your Amazon presence captures the opportunity in the marketplace — not only producing greater revenue and profits but also reducing or eliminating your business’ workload.

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Podcast Episode Transcripts:

Disclaimer: Transcripts were generated automatically and may contain inaccuracies and errors.

Intro 0:09

Welcome to the Buy Box Experts Podcast. We bring to light the unique opportunities brands face in today’s e-commerce world.

James Thomson 0:18

Hi, I’m James Thomson, one of the hosts of the Buy Box Experts Podcast. I’m a partner with Buy Box Experts and the former business head of the selling on Amazon team at Amazon, as well as the first account manager for the Fulfillment by Amazon program. I’m the co-author of a couple of books on Amazon including the recent book Controlling Your Brand in the Age of Amazon. Today’s episode is brought to you by Buy Box Experts. Buy Box Experts takes ambitious brands and makes them unbeatable. When you hire Buy Box Experts, you receive the strategy optimization and marketing performance to succeed on Amazon. We also support investors with due diligence services. Go to buyboxexperts.com to learn more.

Before I introduce our guest today, I want to send a big shout out to the team at GETIDA, a global leader in Amazon FBA auditing and reimbursements. GETIDA analyzes your Amazon data and reconciles your FBA inventory and files claims for reimbursements on your behalf. To learn more, check out getida.com. Today’s guest is Claus Rosenberg, Founder and CEO of multiple firms that simplify the journey for entrepreneurs building their own businesses. Claus has built 12 companies, had over 1000 employees, and raised over 20 million euros in funding. As much as we can have a discussion on our guests’ journey through these many, many organizations actually invited Claus today to join us today to talk about his role as an executive coach, which he does today for professionals in all stages of their career. Claus, welcome. And thank you for joining us today on the Buy Box Experts Podcast.

Claus Rosenberg 1:56

James, thank you. And thanks for having me. And thank you for the introduction. Yeah, and with 12 companies in the back at least what I can tell us recall, there are both failures and successes of course. And I think that that is part of you know, what I’m using as my foundation as a coach, to my, to my coaches, to the people that I’m helping, you know, grow themselves and take them in themselves to the next level of where they could be.

James Thomson 2:28

Let me start by asking you, here in the United States, we have this very strange concept of the self-made man, someone who has found great success without the help of anyone else. And as someone who has built a dozen businesses from scratch, what is your perspective on this concept?

Claus Rosenberg 2:46

I think I think that’s a bit of a myth. I think the whole coaching idea and that high performers and high achievers. I mean, Steve Jobs. Google, the Google founders, and part of their management team, and everybody was just made clear to everyone a couple of years ago, so the whale was pulled aside and all these people had coaches. Okay. So if you have read the book that the Trillion Dollar Coach, you know, it is a book written about the coach for the many, many founders and entrepreneurs and leadership team in the US and in brand names like Google, like I mentioned, and others brands. So I think that of myself, I grew up with parents that were entrepreneurs, so be that you are coached by them, or you see how they react and what they do and how they overcome obstacles, etc, or you are actively sitting down and talking with them. So I might say that, uh, you know, I might have coaching from, you know, the nurture of how I was grown up, but I think as a founder, you can do it yourself. But you will face a lot of these obstacles, ups and downs and entrepreneurship and being an entrepreneur, as I say it so many times, it’s an extreme sport. This is really, really hard. Yes, it is, it is bound to get bruised and broken, whether physically or mentally. So therefore, if you have a coach in your corner, you have a better chance and availability to like fall seven and get up eight, literally, you know, get back into the game as fast as possible when something hits you. So,

James Thomson 4:40

I work with entrepreneurs in the Amazon space, and I regularly see people wanting to solve everything themselves. Otherwise asking for help might be seen as a signal of weakness. Maybe it’s a macho male thing, but I’m curious. How do you help senior executives think about the process of becoming more complex? Trouble asking for coaching, asking for help. Even if it’s out of sight, you know, it’s not well known that you have a coach, how do you get people thinking about it? Gosh, maybe I do need to have somebody in the corner helping me?

Claus Rosenberg 5:15

You’re absolutely right. There’s a lot of ego involved. And, and this is one of the things that, you know, I would coaches start to acknowledge that as male or as alpha females, sure, we tend to think that, and we tend to think that the world look upon us, as we should know, everything, you’re the CEO, you’re the founder, you must have all the answers, you know, you are the Oracle, and I’m trying to make my my clients and the coaches understand that there is strength, in vulnerability, there is strength, strength, meaning that your, your teammates, your members, team members, your employees, the people around you will actually respect you more, if you you know, come across authentic and saying, you know, What, this? I don’t really know how to answer that right now. But let me get back to you or whatever the situation may be, but there is strength in invulnerability and openness and communication. So, starting out with a coaching session, this relationship has to evolve, and evolve over time. And it becomes very personal. So the first couple of sessions are always about, you know, feeling each other out, then you know, you know, get to build a rapport and also energy level. Yes, some people come in, and they are high energy, and they are, you know, you know, want to be and I need to match that, and others come in and much more pensive and quiet and thoughtful, and I would need to match that. But once we start building trust and relationship, I am the one saying the things that nobody else maybe says or asks. And there is, and there is nothing, you know, you are paying me to ask you those questions, you might even know that you should have asked yourself that question. You might even know the answer to that question. But you haven’t faced the question. So I’m the one big thing. You know, what’s going on right here? How to deal with it.

James Thomson 7:29

So let me ask you, let’s say I do recognize that I might need to get some help. So the question then is, why would I hire an executive coach, versus a consultant versus an agency? What are these different types of organizations meant to accomplish in helping me solve whatever the problems are that I have as a business professional?

Claus Rosenberg 7:51

So I very often get asked the comparison between a mentor and a coach, yes, because I work in the startup environment at founders and stuff. So a mentor or a consultant is very much someone who has a very specific and technical knowledge and answer to your questions. So how do I calculate my customer acquisition cost? And how do I calculate my lifetime value? You go to a mentor, he will sit you down and tell you, this is what you, including your customer acquisition costs. This is how you estimate lifetime value. And sort of you can walk away saying, Great, thank you for teaching me that that was a 15 minute call, appreciate it. Whereas as a coach, it is my job to help you, as an individual move from where you are today, to where your potential could be, to help you grow. And that growth also benefits your business because it becomes very personal. It’s very, I mean, there are three errors in life. Energy, that is how we live, what we eat, how we sleep. Last, this is our relationship. This is people around and his family and then work. So energy, work and love, we have to address all three things you cannot want to show up as a world class entrepreneur, founder, Amazon blackbelts. If you are not taking care of your energy levels, if you don’t eat well, if you don’t eat well, if you don’t exercise well and you cannot expect to show up as well. If you have a broken relationship at home and you are not connected with your wife and children and family and stuff, everything is intertwined in you, you showing up. So we have to address all of that. And that’s a coach’s job. That is, you know, that is my job to get into all those corners. So much different from a mentor. I think that is more specifically targeted to a technical term or to learn.

James Thomson 9:47

I don’t think I’ve ever hired McKinsey to come in and tell me how to fix my broken relationships at home. No. So, you find yourself then in situations where because of the nature of talking to Your coaches about things that are very personal at home, there has to be trust that gets built up over time. And it feels like there might be peeling back the layers of the onion to get to the real understanding of who this person is that you’re working with, and what’s really driving them, what’s really motivating, what’s really holding them back. That’s a very deep discussion.

Claus Rosenberg 10:24

It is, and I want to say, right up front, and I always say that by I’m not a therapist, so I am, I’m not the guy that that we will go back to your five year old childhood, where you very disappointed by your parent or something like that, though, you know, various that will become a booth pop up at some point, or, you know, I had a I had a CEO coming to me and and was very, you know, avoiding non confrontational, avoiding conflicts avoiding addressing the team members, you know, with, with conflict over messaging and conversations. Okay. And of course, we could peel that back if we wanted to, and find out, you know, you know, maybe there’s some childhood trauma and stuff like that. But I don’t really it’s not my I’m not a therapist, I don’t, you know, necessarily need to go there. I need to look ahead, you know, so let’s fix this? Okay, I think we fix, how do we fix being, you know, non confrontational? So, yes, you’re right, barriers, a lot of things reveal. But again, I’m not messing around in what happened, you can, you could go and see a psychotherapist and discuss that and get great results from that. I certainly recommend that to anyone, but I’m here to look ahead, you know, how do we change this? How do we become non confrontational to go in and again, address things?

James Thomson 11:49

So where does someone go about looking for an executive coach? How do you Google executive coaches? How do you find people and decide this? Is the person who I want to work with? How do you compare different types of options? What are the criteria you should be using to select an executive coach that is likely to meet your needs?

Claus Rosenberg 12:07

Is this? This is a great question. And, and it comes down to connecting, I think that most coaches will give you a free session or free call. That’s the first place to start, you know, jump on a 20 minutes 30 minute call and see if you connect with that person. And then of course, also this person’s situation I am I’m very clear. My sweet spot is entrepreneurship and founders. Just because for over 30 years, I’ve been an entrepreneur, I know, I know how hard it is, I know how hard it is to combine personal health, family love, taking care of business, going through that emotional roller coaster. Yes, I would not recommend myself as a coach for raising teenage daughters because personally, maybe I don’t see myself that very successful. And that is why I was successful in entrepreneurship and understanding founders. So that’s what I would like to focus my coaches. So find someone that first of all you connect with, and you feel the trust with initially, and also someone that maybe shares your story or shares your passion and shares your values. I think values are important.

James Thomson 13:21

So help me think through this idea of how long should someone expect to be using the services of an executive coach? Is there a certain minimum amount of time or maximum on a timer? How do you determine this has run its course, or I’m not in a position to help you any further?

Claus Rosenberg 13:40

Well, normally a relationship with a coach and coach is something that lasts about three months, but it can of course last longer than that. Because normally when you come into a coach because you want to have one issue solved, you have like I’m frustrated that I keep losing my relationship just because I’m out an entrepreneur and I work too much, okay, I want to fix that issue. Let’s say that’s a good success, okay, that’s what you’ve come into a coach and wants to have fixed, stop burning my relationship being able to have both things. Okay. So once we get down that route, there will be times when you know we might have exhausted that things might have you know, compromised but then there’s other things and I actually also want to learn to combine having a physical exercise and taking care of my body and not eating so much junk but I have a couple of habits I want to change then so then we go down that route a couple of sessions you know, and so you can sort of keep building on this relationship and and constantly making yourself a little bit better every day, every every session every month every year and it’s a constant learning curve for us to become better humans, better fathers better parents, better business people that entrepreneurs. So if you if you are into personal growth areas and endless opportunity of growth opportunities,

James Thomson 15:01

So I think of an executive coach providing new perspective and possibly guidance to help the coachee. When should the professional use that guidance? or potentially ignore the guidance from the executive coach? How do you deal with people not necessarily listening to what you’re saying?

Claus Rosenberg 15:20

That’s, that’s, that’s also a good question. And I am not an Oracle either, no one, no one is no one is perfect. So I may well get things wrong. And I might well, you know, be given advice. But the thing here is, that is very rarely me giving the advice. It is the coachee. discovering a solution, and adapting that new mentality or behavior, or mindset, that is where the personal growth comes in. So, I am less of a teacher than I am a magnifying glass. And a great reminder. Okay, so it might come to diplomacy. That’s that, I discovered this class, but I’m not ready to go down that route. Okay, fair enough. But I’m not telling you what to do. Or Mike, I’m not telling the coaches. Right, right. Right. And you will indeed, we will, in this conversation, find out why is it you keep pushing off putting off going to the gym? What is happening, you have stated, clearly, you want to go to the gym, you want to lose 20 pounds, you want to have more energy, you want to be more present with your wife and not fall asleep on the couch and all those things. Great. What is it that keeps pulling you away from not doing these things that you want to do, not to show up who you want to show up as? And then we’re going to, you’re going to find out, wow, okay, I have a really bad habit of this, that and the other and then you’re gonna have accountability to watch me change that habit. And, you know, in a few, a couple of weeks, suddenly, it’s fixed, it’s so but I am less of giving you telling you what to do than I am putting a spotlight or magnifying glass of what you need to change and what you would like to change.

James Thomson 17:19

Among many of the entrepreneurs that I work with, they started the business from scratch, they have resisted delegating, because there’s a little bit of a superman mentality here. And then eventually they get in over their heads. So once they realize they have to hire staff, their lives do become easier, but they also become complicated because they have staff they have to manage. Given what you’ve done building your own businesses and hiring staff. If you were hiring employees to expand your own business doing that, for the first time, that first employee, that second employee that you’re building, how would you as an executive coach, and help your coaches think about this type of problem. And I bring this up because this, this particular issue comes up over and over and over again, among the types of folks that that we deal with

Claus Rosenberg 18:09

when it comes to hiring, when it comes to getting people on board into your business, which let’s be clear, it’s your baby, it’s your everything made up besides your wife and your kids who everything the first thing that you have to look at here as for a long way The only thing you have to look at here is values, what values does this person persist and have okay? And I say this because you are going to end up working very very closely with this person on your baby on your business. So if you are a person of high energy, you know, sort of you know posed to be pumped every day and just happy to get into work. And you have someone coming in with an amazing CV and all ticking all the right boxes. But you know you feel a light goes out when he walks in and you know and just sort of drags himself to the chair you know, you just sorry, yeah, sorry guy but but here is the completely mismatch of values if you value energize people, healthy people, people that are focused and just an example it could be integrity, it could be time management, it could be honesty and other things. There are so many values and you should start by knowing your own values first and then look for those values. Okay, you cannot fill up a team with people that don’t it’s going to be a drag it’s going to you’re going to end up not liking and you’re going to end up feeling not comfortable having them doing the things that you asking them to do because you feel these guys I’m here and there they are, you know, know all these things, or she might know all these things, but oh my god, you know, I have This distrust because of value misalignment. So get the values, right? Most things can be learned on Amazon PPC, 100 courses out there, two months into it, the guy or girl with the right values and the right mindset and the right drive will pick it up and learn it, okay. And of course there is experience and more knowledge in it. But most things nowadays can be picked up and learned very, very quickly.

James Thomson 20:26

Let’s talk about your experience. There’s a little bit of a paradox of experience that we sometimes run into where people who have lots of experience have to hold themselves back from believing they have the answers just because they have more experience than the person on the other side of the table. You have built so many organizations, you have so many experiences having done that, how did all of these experiences prepare you to become a coach? amidst it’s not necessarily a standard journey for an entrepreneur to say, I’m going to become a coach?

Claus Rosenberg 21:01

No, I agree. First of all, I think you have to be humble enough to know that, as I said, I’m not an Oracle. And many, I have made many, many mistakes, and I use my mistakes as a great reminder that, you know, I have also failed and I have also done things the wrong way and gotten in bed with the wrong people and have taken wrong decisions and routes. So that’s a great reminder for myself to know that. I don’t know everything. But I think the knowledge that I have over all these years, and nurses have gone from, you know, bankruptcy to exit, then, you know, and everything in between. Those allow me to when a situation comes up to first dive into what these persons would like to change or could change about, but then also sometimes throw in my own experiences. And I’m a little bit careful about that. So I always say, this is what I experienced. And what I experienced doesn’t necessarily either work for you, or fisu s but just hear me out just hear my what happened when I got kicked out by someone because I gave them a power of attorney that was extended too long. I don’t know what example I’m just sharing. So I will tell them, this is what happened to me, you can see those takeaways from that that you can use. But first, we will be diving into your way of solving this, you know, asking a lot of open-ended questions and seeing if we together can dive into finding a solution before I suggest something or share my story.

James Thomson 22:43

How did you decide to go into executive coaching?

Claus Rosenberg 22:48

I have always, as I said, I’ve always been an entrepreneur. This is the only thing I know how to do and the only thing I can do. And I’ve always liked to be part of the entrepreneurial community. When I moved to Madrid, six years ago or something, I opened up the chapter of Startup Grind. And Startup Grind is a global entrepreneurial community built by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs. And we every month we had a, you know, fireside chat and interview with someone and entrepreneur so that the audience could ask questions to their entrepreneur and not just read the TechCrunch hype lines here Sunday raised, you know, that is, you know, doesn’t really give you much value of you know, what, how did you do it. So, I have always been part of the entrepreneurial community and, and realize that there I would always be happy to provide my help and assistance and push it forward. And then I was contacted some years ago by an incubator and accelerator if I could be part of their team becoming an in-house coach. Yep. And, and then I ended up so today I’m coaching a lot of the WeWork and SoftBank companies coming into the WeWork Lab, which is an incubator, sorry, an accelerator and other accelerators in the world that I’m working with. But I’m still doing this quite exclusively in the sense that I still have three companies that I’m part owning, of course, you do score sheets, you know, I dedicate, you know, mostly my Fridays to coaching. So, I manage my time around Fridays, Fridays that I will have a you know, one on one coaching or group coaching sessions for the people. And honestly, I I love serving. I love giving back and when you help someone go from here to here and they are maximizing their potential, reliving their relationships, more energy and their business is a good track. I mean, what more do you want? Your feedback is amazing.

James Thomson 24:54

You and I got connected through one of your other businesses and I’d love you to talk to our audience a little bit about What you’re doing in the e-commerce space, because that’s something that we all understand.

Claus Rosenberg 25:05

Yes. A couple of years ago with partners in London, primarily investment bankers, and they of course got very excited with the growth of e-commerce and the monetary opportunities there. And then we saw the growth of aggregators and all the money flowing into that space and, and we had a conversation around what we should do in that space. And I said to them, well, from my perspective, coming as a founder and an entrepreneur, 100%, I see a couple of services that are going to be a required one. And that goes back to my data as having a trading company. If you grow and you grow fast, you would never have enough capital to grow as fast as you could. It’s always on the road, it’s always on the ship, it’s always in a warehouse, there’s always some sort of payables or receivables. So, I said, If e-commerce is growing so much, there will be a desperate requirement for capital for these companies to get capital, because e-commerce is structured the way it is, a new product should be developed for these e-commerce, which was one thing and this secondary says there will be a need for these sellers, to be able to find service providers and help when it comes to the m&a and selling their business. Because you have no idea how different that is from running a day to day business. And when it starts to become merger acquisition conversations, the whole song and dance around finding the right buyer and then the due diligence, it’s a whole new game, and it’s something that can one completely throw you off, running your business and taking care of it. And two, you might end up leaving money on the table or you know, not getting the best and the fair value for the hard work. So we decided to launch a service firm where we help. E-commerce is getting supply chain capital. We do that with a partner from the US. And then we offer them more traditional exit services, meaning brokerage, finding a buyer for you, due diligence, investment memorandums and helping you get a fair deal for all that hard work.

James Thomson 27:22

I can’t think of a private, privately held seller business that I’ve talked to in the last two years that isn’t thinking about somebody with my business, and how do I grow faster by capitalizing my business better. So that definitely to two important pain points that you’re addressing through that business.

Claus Rosenberg 27:42

And you know what, you know, everyone can look on LinkedIn or the internet and find, you know, you know, 10s or 20s aggregators, I mean, they are all out there and then raise rates, you know, you can contact them yourself. And you can think, why should I have a broker in between? I think there are a number of things that are then left out from your, from your thesis here is that one is, should I reach out to all of them? Or should I just take the two, first three, that answer my email back and dive in and start talking to you. Secondly, in the beginning, you’re always going to hear exactly what you want to hear if you have an interesting business, and they are going to be very, very happy to sign and they lie with you to tell you sort of off the market and start massaging you to get to you. And then he This is what happens, then, you know, once that is happening, then it becomes down to this. Okay, then it’s about chopping away on your sales price as much as possible, because at the end of the day it is a numbers game. Yeah. And, as a direct buyer to a seller from a seller to a buyer, you are not in a position to do a hard call in a conversation. Say this, you know, no, thank you, this is Bs, you know, I’m going to walk away. Because if you do that you have said, I’m going to walk away. A broker can do this, you know, we can go and say this, and we are not, we’re not happy with those terms. And you know, so thank you very much. And we can always play the good cop, bad cop. That’s one thing. So throwing the web net out wide enough that you get with a broker, making sure that the paperwork is professionally done with the right advisors and looks professional, but also negotiating better and harder when the chipping starts to. Okay. I’m not promising our clients that we’re going to get more for their business because you’re broke. But I’m actually saying this, I think we might be able to reduce the discount that we’ve got to because we’re going to ask you that, well, we’re going to find out the argument of why we need to not be discounted so much or the payment terms are going to be different than what they know.

James Thomson 29:47

So Claus, I want to go back to executive coaching. I want to close out our discussion today by asking you for someone who has never had an executive coach. What are the effective ways To start the journey of integrating an executive coach into your professional life, you realize you need coaching, you know, you need to get started. But Gosh, the stranger has now entered my life and keeps asking me questions that make me identify that I have gaps that I need to address. Now that that can be overwhelming. So how do you help your first time coaches to become comfortable not just with you, but with the concept of what you represent?

Claus Rosenberg 30:30

We start small, like with everything, we have to start small. So the first conversations, the first two conversations are more around, mapping out, you know, what’s happening today, you might in the first conversation, you might tell me what you would like to change, okay, okay, fair enough. So we got that up there as our North Star, or maybe it’s sort of a not so distant shore that we’re going to get to, but then we’re gonna say, Okay, this first map out what is your day? Like, I want to know about your routines, your habits, you know, are you are you the one o’clock guy on your mobile phone and your laptop and then you want to expect to wake up at seven and be fully powered up and energize and, and show up as a world class founder or, you know, I need to know where you are. So, we start mapping that out, you start sharing with me things and I might drop in some things here that you know, have you considered, you know, you know, maybe that go into bed a little bit earlier or taking your take a you know, digital sunset a little bit early, and you know, we will start to then I would for those who accept sort of an accountability, then we would take small things they Okay. The next week till we talk again, put me on this accountability charge. When are you taking your digital sunset? When are you going to shut off all the digital simile and input to really get a good night’s rest? Yep. And then we will see that your face, you know, we started at one o’clock or something, that’s to say, and then you know, Monday, Tuesday goes to 11. And then you can see it at 11 o’clock. And then when we meet again on Friday, I can sort of ask him so how did that feel? How did that work out for you? Actually, I woke up much more energized more incrementally so that it rapport, it builds trust, then we can start diving into okay. You know, so it starts small, we need to build that it’s a very personal thing.

James Thomson 32:28

Claus, I want to thank you for joining us today on the Buy Box Experts Podcast. For our listeners who are interested in learning more about Claus and his executive coaching organization, please visit coachclaus.com. And be sure to join us again next time on the Buy Box Experts Podcast. Thank you. Today’s episode is brought to you by GETIDA. GETIDA is a global leader in Amazon FBA, auditing and reimbursements. GETIDA analyzes your Amazon data, reconciles your FBA inventory and files claims and reimbursements on your behalf. No obligations, no hidden fees, just GETIDA recovering your money. GETIDA helps you get your money back into your pockets so you can focus on investing in more inventory and growing your business. To learn more, check out getida.com. That’s getida.com.

Outro 33:19

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